At the request of several of our colleagues, we’re moving the discussion about the use of 6-8 stats from the “ODP 2026 Regional Championships” thread to this thread.
From Odpnotgood:
"Statistically speaking, big players in big games will have the stats to back it up.
"Sure Ryder may only score 1 or two goals sometimes, but he’s obviously impactful. He always has a solid 68 number.
“There’s anomalies in a lot of statistics in every sport. AI says Seattle is going to win the super bowl. If they don’t, does that mean we should never use statistics again? Wild card weekend had a lot of upsets. I guarantee NFL scouts are still going use statistics to guide them at the combine.”
water polo is no where near NFL stat tracking. It’s not a logical comparison. If every water polo game kept meticulous stats maybe we could compare, but barely even high level games like JO finals are the assists, EE, blocks, steals inputed into 68. It is user error, not 68 error but I don’t think we can say at this point 68 is what we should base talent scouting in water polo on.
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The biggest flaw I see with 6-8 is the turnover part. Guys are penalized heavily for a turnover but a center who receives a bad pass and is crashed on only to lose the ball is no way the same as a perimeter player losing the ball to a hard pressing defender one on one. If the pass is bad and ill timed that turnover should be on the passer not the receiver. Also missed goals are not counted heavy enough. There is no way a player who goes 2 for 12 should have any positive number, if the missed shot turns the ball over, it should be a turnover, unless it was at the last 3 seconds of the shot clock… However it would be impossible to implement all of these things, and remember the system was developed by a shooter, so bias is set.
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Great points, agree with this strongly. I did wonder at times why my child’s score was low despite it being a good game.
This is a great explanation and ways 6-8 stats could be improved.
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For one tournament I had the opportunity to input stats on 6-8 for a team. I would not consider myself a power user at all, but I think it would require at least 2 people (probably more)inputting stats to capture everything that is suggested here with 100% accuracy for both teams (assuming one does not have excellent game footage to validate stats after the fact). I did not have completed roster for the other team even. Does the 6 8 database cross check multiple inputs for a single game and if so how does it resolve conflicts? Example: in one play within a few seconds you might have to input cap number for many different players and game time for; a turnover, an earned exclusion, an assist, and a goal. While inputting all of that an assist and a goal going the other way. Maybe I am just slow but it seems likely that 2 people inputting stats on the same game could have significant disparities including almost every entry for time since the game desk doesnt capture time automatically which would come with a whole array of other problems.
It is a great tool but has limitations i think (likely mostly user related).
That can all be true.
I do not have a child in ODP.
However, if USA water polo is going to partner with 6-8 and publish the results, ODP must utilize those in their selections.
I think not recognizing those players is going to lead to validity questions of ODP selection that will hurt the growth of water polo. Using impartial data—flaws and all—helps with transparency and trust in the evaluation process.
In every job, in every sport, you have statistics to back up your decision making.
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agree re: need to use with 2 or more people. whenever i’ve used it, i’ve done it with 3 people (including me). more eyes/ears to catch plays…sanity check things… more comprehensive to track for all players who played in game… etc.
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where are the 6-8 stats actually being published for ODP regional tournament? I’ve heard them referenced in this and other thread, but I haven’t seen anything publicly available yet.
My experience with their stats is you can only really rely on goals stat. If USA Water Polo is partnering with 6-8 and those results are being shared, I honestly think it reflects poorly on USA water polo as the stats are usually so unreliable. At the same time, stats should complement, not replace, live evaluation, game sense, and coach assessments.
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ODP should likely not be publishing stats of any kind IMO as there is little chance they will have good statisticians at each pool
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Good call and thank you.
Totally irresponsible
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wow, i was just going to mention @Gibson in this comment. Wild that USA water polo would publish these stats (which are likely wrong) from scrimmages as you rightly called them in the other thread. no scoreboard, no clock or shot clocks at cadet, but they have stats! lol
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You can go to 68 website and see specific games it’s been contracted to be at. I have seen ODP champs stats in the past bc if u watch live stats u kind of can follow what’s going on in the game. I’d be surprised if UsA water polo partners with them without requiring 68 to input more info
Does anyone have a link to the formula that 6-8 uses?
The fact that not even all of the games at the cadet eval camp were scored (at least there is no record of several of the games now) makes this even more wild that they chose to publish this.
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I see a lot of games for cadet where the second half is not scored. all zeros for those quarters
Publishing global leaderboards or something like cadet ODP overall rankings in that scenario sounds like a bad idea.
From our colleague, JFranPolo:
"As most people have pointed out, the ODP process is not perfect. But scouting is not an exact science–just look at the drafts of various professional sports. However, when I came aboard USA Water Polo 7 years ago, I told the director at the time, John Abdou, that we needed to not only evaluate the athletes at zone camps, but also watch these athletes with their clubs as well as their high school team. Most athletes have a different role in those three different venues. That is why I try to get to as many games/tournaments/etc as possible throughout the year, and have as much of a foundation on a respective player as I possibly can.’
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