6-8 Game Desk/Statistics

General
1

Since we are having a discussion about this on the National League page I started a new topic.

I’m going to make the case that everyone everywhere should be using Game Desk publicly. So far I’ve read:

  1. Stats are only as good as the person doing them. This is absolutely true and hence why if more people use Game Desk then we would have more accuracy with the stat taking. Parents being upset about missed stats will further push for more accuracy.

  2. Stats have too much variability. Correct, let’s standardize as much as possible to increase accuracy (is a forced ball under a steal/turnover? Let’s make sure everyone agrees on this).

  3. Stats cause selfish play. This is untrue and in fact I’d argue a good coach can use stats to discourage selfish play. “Hey buddy, you’re 1/12 shooting in this game maybe after you miss your 9th shot let’s try passing the ball.” Also, the +/- number on 6/8 gives a value to the whole game and often times the player with 6 goals in a game isn’t necessarily the top player of the game.

  4. Stats should be hidden from the team. This is a great way to have parents and players talking behind your back as a coach. I would argue to make stats on display for all parents and players to see. Make the 6-8 challenge results public too while you’re at it so all parents and players can see why playing time is divided up the way it is. If your kid wants to play more, let’s work on leg strength, speed, shooting accuracy.

  5. Good coaches can pick the best players better than a stat sheet. There is definitely value to human assessment but it should be done with a combination to the statistical analysis. Can’t tell you how many 6’5” guys who can leg up to the sky I’ve seen also shoot the ball over the goal while the other team goes and scores.

In the end, I’d argue that stats are helpful for growing the sport. If all HS teams at least entered in goals scored into MaxPreps we would know more about those teams and be able follow players during their career. More stats equals more visibility for the sport.

Discuss.

5 Likes
2

Stats are part of sport and I think they are helpful on many fronts. I think the 6-8 Gamedesk actually helps kids get away from being selfish. Without 6-8 the primary stat is goals scored. With this you get “rewarded” fro all aspects of the game that can be quantified. Ofcourse there are non stat plays that a stat sheet can’t account for like in most team sports, such as if a team cheats over to shut down a great player and make the other players make plays. I think the more people that use it, and understand it, the better. It is rarely, if ever, the score table keeping up with 6-8 Gamedesk. It is typically another group of people. I also think it should not be hidden at all. I can’t think of a sport that hide stats from the players. It is a learning tool for players.

3

Not National League specific, however, they are reporting “top performers” on the site with a +/- rating. Does anyone know how this is calculated? Its not really explained here - Game Desk Analytics — 6-8 Sports.

Its not simply a +/- like Hockey, where it tracks your team’s goals for and against when you are in the water. Seems to add other stats. Any insight appreciated.

4

6-8 has a scoring method showing positive points for goals, assists, steals, etc. Negative for turnovers, exclusions, penalties, etc. It is to give a more complete picture of performance beyond goals and it seems to do a nice job of that.

5

Thanks, I was wondering about the details on the algorithm. Does this get published anywhere? eg: is a steal worth +1 ? +.5 ? Goals are worth what ? etc…

6

I can’t recall all of them, but some are fractional, such as .9 pts etc. The 6-8 site may have a place listing them out, but it includes 7 or 8 different actions results in positive or negative points. For younger athletes it really helps them understand they can impact a game through much more than just shooting.

1 Like
7

In theory it is a pretty good idea with the potential to provide some insightful metrics. In reality, it’s only as good as the person inputting the data and far too often that data gets put in incorrectly or not at all.

8

Agreed and I think consistency matters so for your team it is scored in a similar way game to game, week to week. I see parents get upset if their player didn’t get credit for some stat line when really that doesn’t matter as players aren’t getting rewarded for it. It should be used as a tool to understand where improvement can happen and usually you look at the end stat lines and it aligns with what you eyes saw in the game. Some are too worried about it being perfect and miss the bigger picture of what it is for.

9

Truth.

I do quite a bit of statistical analysis, and I never share it with parents. It is too easy to pull some statistic out to paint an inaccurate picture. For the sake of team chemistry, I keep that analysis tightly controlled. Besides, there is no measure I’ve found that is as good as the perception of an experienced coach.

5 Likes
10

Completely agree here. The last thing that we need are parents obsessing about mistakes in junior’s stat lines or the kids trying to reach a magic “number” each game.

Plus, the stats that I have seen posted online for the high school and college games that have attended leave a lot to be desired. The people taking the starts are not consistent and are making a ton of mistakes. Garbage in equals garbage out. Heck, the desk struggles to keep the score correct sometimes.

There are too many intangibles in water polo that need to be seen in person and can’t be summarized with a mere number.

5 Likes
11

Good stats would be great but bad stats are worse than no stats.

6-8 ought to be able to run some analytics on their stats and quickly determine when a game was scored terribly. If there are 30 goals scored but no assists, someone probably missed something. If there are 20 exclusions but no earned exclusions someone probably missed something. And on and on.

We should ask 6-8 to include a disclaimer or grade to the stats for each game. Why publish a +/- on a game missing vital stats?

Then use the grade to teach the people doing the stats to be better at the task.

4 Likes
12

I have not witnessed that happening to that extent before, not saying it hasn’t but just that I have not seen that. Keep in mind a lot of the games on the Game Desk are being kept for 1 team only, the team that has the subscription, so the opposite teams stat lines are not going to be accurate or relevant since no names are attached. I am talking about the non collegiate or National League type of games.

1 Like
13

Here is an ODP example…

https://scores.6-8sports.com/unity/leagues/849e52e5-3860-463d-bc25-2e1fda8554ae/conferences/53d0c304-f93f-4067-a254-5c1ae0a77b5c/teams/1cd4311a-aaf8-4e42-b836-d5323ffdc0c6/players/10bd7035-64a1-45eb-98b6-0663313343eb/schedule/games/d5e89345-83de-4b3a-8221-016106a8f4b2/box-score

14

I think this may have been the first time ODP used 6-8 and they seem ill prepared to do so based on that. That seems like an ODP problem and not 6-8. If ODP is going to use it they should invest the time to train those keying it in. Whoever was keying it seemed to only care about goals and exclusions and not much else, like what you see on paper. That is odd and defeating the purpose of using the program. It would be interesting to know that arrangement for ODP and who owned it.

1 Like
15

I agree it’s more of a scorekeeping problem then a 6-8 one. My point is simply that it would be great if when things like this happen 6-8 were able to flag it and help scorekeepers get better. A tournament wide +/- where some games are scored as poorly as this isn’t great. Again, not 6-8 per se, but an example of pretty misleading stats.

3 Likes
16

Did they have 6-8 scoring at Newport Invite?

17

100%. One of the biggest challenges in our sport is education—across the board. Players, coaches, referees, desk workers, statisticians—everyone needs proper training, but building that foundation takes time and effort.

The first hurdle is simply having people to train. In a developing water polo region like Texas, the most knowledgeable individuals—athletes and coaches—are usually busy competing. After them, referees would be the next best option, but they’re fully occupied officiating (and, understandably, their role pays more than table work or stats).

That often leaves siblings, parents, college athletes (if they’re even available), or players who aren’t competing in the event to handle table duties and statistics. But even after finding workers, the next challenge is training them.

6-8 Sports has a ton of training resources available—free education and a super friendly staff—but they don’t cover the cost of training workers. It also sounds like they pay people directly to stat, but the tournament itself doesn’t fund the stat collection. In general, I assume many events aren’t willing to pay for stats, knowing the accuracy might be inconsistent and could lead to parent complaints—similar to the backlash when table workers make shot clock errors. However, with stats, mistakes are much more visible, permanently accessible online, and don’t simply “reset” like a shot clock does.

Even after learning the software, statisticians need to be consistent, understand the game’s nuances, and track stats for every athlete—all while working long days, sometimes covering 7-8 games (or more) in a single day. On top of that, incorrect or missing rosters create additional stress. If coaches don’t submit the right lineups before the game, the on-deck stat team has to manually input names and cap numbers, often under immense time pressure. Referees won’t delay the start of a game for roster corrections, and in some cases, fixing everything can take 10+ minutes!

It’s a high-stress job but also incredibly rewarding. Getting it right requires coordination across multiple roles: referees conducting proper roster checks, coaches ensuring rosters are accurate, and statisticians—often high school students—who need the right training, motivation, and knowledge of the sport.

It’s a tough problem to solve, but I’m excited to see progress being made!

Source: I’ve done stats using 6-8 in the past!

4 Likes
18

I agree with many points: garbage in, garbage out. But the idea of consistent tracking is great to me. One question is whether the points are generated openly. I cannot think of a sport where public stats published by leagues are not open and understood.

Like anything data-related, the more data collected, the better it will be tuned and, therefore, more accurate in measurement.

Not sure that the Fosh and 68 consider themselves competitors, but it would be great to have a common scoring and tracking system. The complexity curve goes up with the more apps people need to understand and use.

19

Agree with many points made, but we’re overlooking the biggest (cost):

  • Cal Cup is $225/games - and teams have to provide table workers
  • Futures is $250/game - and at the lower level boys games they sometimes lack referees

So who is paying for this additional specialized table worker? Are the tournaments raising entry fees? Do we think $300/game entry fees (Futures SF prices) will encourage more or less participation?

Additionally - is 6/8 usage completely free? For example - can my kid create a profile, have access to all their stats, all competitor’s stats, and all game stats for free?

20

$3.99 monthly to have access to a profile and scoring for your individual player in any game that uses 6/8.

Free to track all games scored and shared publicly on the website.

Clubs can subscribe as a club at different levels of service whether they want to use for one weekend of play, all the time, monthly etc.

Guess I’d make the case that if you’re paying $500 plus per month to your club and ODP and USAWP fees, this doesn’t seem like a large amount to have a record of statistics for your own kid.

Obviously, I feel public stats are good for the sport as a fan so I’m gonna fight for the positives over any negatives.

If you follow basketball, we love stars and we know those stars because of their stats.