My point is there will always be someone trying to leverage something. It’s a subjective process to begin with and players should only focus on the parts of the process they can control. Again its no different to happens at various high schools around the area.
I saw the same with boys PSW Cadet and Youth Which seemingly would mean at least 12 youth in socal lost out on an opportunity. But thrn again maybe just maybe after being selected last year, they just weren’t good enough this year…This is where it would be nice to see if those cadets had a certain club or hs affiliation, just to see the data, for science sake.
As a family we’ve always went into ODP as an opportunity to learn from some great coaches alongside the best in the zone. The ability to play at a high level when you know your being evaluated is priceless and ODP is great for exposing your kid to that environment. Do it enough and you’ll watch your kids start to take on challenges when it matters while others shy away from the competition.
I’ve always told my kids in the face of adversity, that they need to remove outside factors and get soo good, that they’d be stupid not to pick you. Making the team was never the goal, although a cool experience when they did. Our focus was being able to compete against people better than them and come back with more tools in their tool belt. And then the realization sets in, that they have played against, scored against, and stuffed some of the best players in the country. The confidence they have when going back to play on their club or HS teams is worth it all.
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Having been affiliated with LLWS, I can tell you that what parents assert, and what really goes on are wildly separated. Those teams you see playing in Williamsport, PA are, mostly, the very best kids from their respective leagues. Sure, there’s probably a few players at the bottom of a roster here and there who are a coach’s kid, or have connected parents/donors. However, by and large, those are the true all-stars of their given area. Of course, any number of parents whose kids don’t make those teams will swear otherwise, but as a (mostly) neutral observer, I haven’t seen that to be the case. These coaches want to win. I suspect the same is likely true of USA Water Polo’s ODP.
As for the “they all come from the same clubs!” Well, duh! Those same clubs at or near the top of the JO’s final standings every summer? You don’t say!
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It’s heartbreaking, honestly. I thought for sure once we got to the college level that all the parental politics would go away. Unfortunately, they were worse than ever with the stakes higher. At that level, players are treated like assets or liabilities. Some see glory by making the travel rosters while others are almost practiced to death with the false incentives that if they get better, they will start playing. It rarely to never happens and these kid burn out or worse. What you don’t realize or have privy to are the politics and the relationships with the parents and the coaching staff or school administration that are driving the playing decisions.
Right, college coaches in all sports are known for putting inferior teams in competition because they have a relationship with a player’s parents. That’s how champions are made and coaches keep their jobs.
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You said it before I could! 
This thread will probably keep going, so I’ll add one thought that doesn’t get talked about much: water polo is genuinely hard for the average observer to evaluate. It seems like a lot of parents can’t easily tell who is actually playing at a high level and who isn’t.
In football, impact is often obvious, be it size, speed, agility, tackles, or other measurable production. Even a casual observer can usually spot who stands out. There are also clear metrics and a lot of film, so performance gets validated from multiple angles.
Water polo seems very different in that two players can look similar to the untrained eye, but one may be driving outcomes in ways that aren’t obvious (positioning, decision-making, timing, defensive awareness, how they function within a system).
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LLWD and ODP have two very difference outcomes. One is playing to win a championship. ODP itself is incentivized by something totally different. You want kids to stay in a pipeline with a hope of making something, not any championship. Two very different examples.
Gibson, before my kid started playing D1, that is exactly what I thought. An NCAA coach’s job depends on a winning percentage. But when you have a deep bench and you are good at recruiting, you can still win and play politics. Unfortunately, we experienced this first hand and it was a very difficult four years.
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That wasn’t my experience(s) nor anything I’ve ever observed at the college level. I guess everybody interprets their situations differently.
Then you are lucky and I genuinely mean that. …and this wasn’t an interpretation. Several people have noted in this thread that there is no proof of political (or worse) motives resulting in playing time or making a team. I am telling you that I experienced this and I would swear under oath to it.
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I believe ODP is contingent upon your environment and location. OC once was or maybe still is the hotbed of future college players. Mine played on high level Clubs and High School teams with much success. “ODP” was just another day at the office playing against other high level players and teams. Therefore why the need? Mine knew that National Team or greater was not in their future nor did they want it. The athlete and their family need to make a good business decision as to what is the goal of the commitment; as others have noted. The athlete should be driving the decision, not the parent, but the parent needs to properly vet it out.
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Wow, I could not disagree more. I’ve had multiple kids on top D1 teams and in no way are parents ever involved in or impact play time or role on the team of an athlete. The coaches do not entertain discussions like that with parents — it does not involve them at all. The only thing parents are involved in is if they want to arrange or donate food, drinks, snacks or meals. If parents think they can get involved, they are only harming their kids.
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In the whole thread I think you bring up the biggest problem.
At the very least there is a huge issue around optics. Think about it. We’re one of the few sports where a NT team coach can also lead an academy and/or run a club or HS. The zone coaches and selectors run clubs in the very same zone. Some have side businesses related to WP. Some have kids in that zone.
Even if they have full and total integrity, there is absolutely no way people are not going to question the system.
In an ideal world, the NT would be lead only by people who do not coach HS or club, and during ODP you are not coaching in your zone (if anything it’d help the weaker zones a lot more). Heck, randomize the players since the outcome of the tournament should have no impact on the selection process.
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Athletes develop/peak at different stages.
Does the ODP system support players that are late bloomers (i.e. past the Cadet level) to get a fair shot to make a Zone Red team? Based on this thread, it appears that “it depends on which Zone the player is in”.
We probably all have kids who play on top D1 and platinum level teams and I don’t think it’s reasonable to suggest that parents are never involved in the playing time and role of the athlete. Any private school that requires “voluntary donations” to be part of the team (and we all know they to) is going have a coach that needs to be accountable to the parents who make any outsized donation to the program - that’s undeniable.
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I’m talking about playing time. I agree and personally have seen instances of athletes getting into a top school and the kid being offered a spot on the team when 1) they academically were not a match for that school and/or 2) they were not a match for the level of play of the team. These instances are pretty obvious/blatant to the kids who went to school and/or played with the athlete in question. However I have not seen an instance where someone undeserving was given an inordinate amount of playing time just because of financial contributions. I doubt any coach doing this would be successful.
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I should have been clear as I think we’re in agreement. Certainly at the college level I agree that parent contributions are not impactful to the child’s playing time. I am referencing a more narrow set of facts where private high schools solicit parent donations, and the high school coach grants more playing time to the kid whose parents made donation that is 10x what all the other parents have donated. It’s an easy through line for the parents to ensure their kid gets exposure, and the coach can’t be unresponsive to significant donors.
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In the event of massive donations, don’t you think the money benefits the team and the program, perhaps water polo community in general? Perhaps it allows the school to provide support to a talented kid that otherwise would be the best player in a lower division program at a public school. What is better, reduced playtime in open division or zero visibility as the most dominant player to ever play Div 4? I am sure there are pros and cons to the situation. These top level private schools that have powerhouse waterpolo teams need to get the funding somewhere. You can always go to a public school and be the standout star outside of the Open division. I assume it is better to have superior coaching and less play time than it is to be a great player in lower division? Correct me if I am wrong.
Not sure that this is at all relevant to ODP, except in the case that the same coach feels beholden to the donor and is making ODP selections. In this case the donation was not made to USAWP at all… to be clear I am not saying this is the case nor do I have any inclination to question the coaching decisions.
Yes. There are instances of players making or not making ODP zone teams and NTSC each year when they did or did not before. Obviously, it’s not very many.
The order of promotion usually includes these steps (with some skipped, repeated or failed)
- Make your zone team
- Make NTSC
- Invited to Academy next year
- Repeat 1&2, once 3 is achieved, 1&2 are mostly perfunctory
- Make a travel team,
- Repeat 1-3, 1&2 are completely meaningless at this point. 3 is likely.
- Get promoted to a Worlds team
- Age up and repeat
Total cost for two years ~$20K+
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