Just to be clear, I was responding to CaPolo’s comment about the college level. At that level and especially at the top four teams, there is no way a coach is going to give playing time for donations. It just does not happen. There’s too much at stake. However, I do understand your point at the high school level. But what I’ve noticed at the high school level is the kids who were really good early on because they matured earlier are still given the benefit of the doubt and playing time. And the kids who are continuing their development and growth throughout their high school career and continue to physically grow, can sometimes out perform and have more longevity than the kids who peaked earlier. But I guess that’s a whole 'nother topic!
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Give one specific example
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Couldn’t agree more. I’ve had multiple posts flagged and removed that did not directly address, coaches or players, but large issues in the sport. There is no recourse. I understand being civil, but anything that has an inkling of controversy is verboten.
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Optics are a huge problem with very little effort to by USAWP to fix.
I would say one of the biggest complaints I have heard from the families within our zone is ODP coach bias. Meaning a club coach selecting their own athletes or overlooking or recruiting other club team athletes. Whether real or not a simple change to the selection process could help. Those selecting athletes for NTSC and beyond should not be club coaches. Utilize our olympians and put a panel together. Or at the very minimal bring in coaches from outside the zone. Change the perception of bias.
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Maybe there are just not enough good coaches available or that want to coach at ODP?Obviously when you see that the coaches involved are also the coaches from the strongest high schools in that zone, then you will have some bias, where coaches pick kids from their HS program, to try to lure more players towards their HS program.
I’m sure there are good coaches from High School Div 2 or lower , that could coach and pick these national teams with less bias, since their own players are mostly not of the level to make these teams anyways. Except for some exceptions of course. But then are the coaches ‘good’ enough to coach at top level, when you are not used to that level of play?
Most people will think they are not, so they will keep approaching coaches from Open Division for example, and a lot of those coaches are not making a lot of money coaching at the high school, so they will take the offer to supplement their income.
IF USAWP would have enough money to tell a coach “this is your position, but you can not coach in HS or Club”,. They would find a taker, but the offer would have to be worth it, and where is that money going to come from, since people already complain about the cost of ODP as it is
Speaking from experience, that projected cost you estimate goes to USAWP categorized as a “donation.” This partly explains why you can match roster names to donations listed in the USAWP annual report. I’m not saying there aren’t donations beyond what families are required to pay (or, ha ha, the suggested fundraising), but you can land on that list unknowingly, especially if you have 2 kids in the pipeline in the same year and both travel internationally for tournaments.
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Goal scoring isn’t everything. I’ve seen plenty of goal scorers play behind better all around players. I’ve coached that way, too. This is lost on many casual observers and most parents.
other people have pointed that out.
Parents of benched players are bad sources of objective analysis
I’d love to hear from any of the people who have claimed experience here what colleges they are talking about. Why the secrecy? The optics of non-specific complaints don’t work for me.
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A few notes:
Please refrain from inviting accusations onto individuals responsible for selections or athletes who have been selected for a team.
It seems that the spirit is asking for evidence of wrongdoing to understand how widespread this problem actually is, but the consequence is anonymous internet forum users are making accusations of unethical behavior without anything that resembles fact checking.
As many of you have pointed out, there’s a lot of potential reasons why an athlete might be selected for a team and receive minutes.
Some of them are certainly reasonable while others probably aren’t.
I think @3xdefense and @NOTCA 's comments about donations and transparency frame the problem well: there’s not a strong understanding in the community on the selection process and some reported numbers are framed poorly.
I suggest we use our time to discuss how we can either improve transparency in the selection process or improve the selection process itself.
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Not to dismiss your experience, but the further you go outside the top 4, the softer the schedule. I have seen player x lead the team in scoring, but the games they scores in are against worse competition and they contribute little on defense while player y is very consistent on both ends of the pool where they may not even score some games but have multiple assists/steals/ejections drawn against better competition.
Another perspective, everyone puts too much emphasis on “starting” when they should put their emphasis on “finishing”. If a coach starts the 6 best players, the team in the water gets much worse when they sub. An experience coach blends talent and understands different groups chemistry to make sure the team is consistently strong. And at the end of the game, the best group is in.
This is college. If an athlete has a question, they should talk to coach (they are both adults now). If coach can’t get the player to buy into his vision, maybe the player isn’t playing for the right school/coach. If the athlete buys in and understands, maybe parents should sit this one out. If your experience was the former, why not give an example and give your feedback so future athletes don’t have to go through what yours did?
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The youth team this year is coached by the Newport coach. There are 2 out of 20 players on the NL roster from Newport. They are going to USC and Stanford. No one could credibly complain about their inclusion on that roster.
What optics are problematic? Just look at the facts and ignore the optics.
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Derek Fisher didn’t start for the Lakers near the end of his career but he closed every big game.
Every ODP some parents complain that their kid was passed over for a kid who scored fewer goals. I think I posted a Kocur video where he explicitly stated goals weren’t everything. Those who still complain are simply ignoring what they are being told because it conflicts with what they want to believe. It’s an American epidemic right now.
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Off ball work and defense are under appreciated in this thread.
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I’ve tried to stay out of this, but I can provide a comment on Dev. If money and influence were the keys to advancement, there would be Q4 birthday kids receiving invites to NTSC. In the last year we have birthdate data, twenty-two Q4 birthday kids were on Dev zone teams. Zero of them received an invite to NTSC. None.
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College coaches making decisions with 6-8 +/- as a determination for starters? No way! Never! Not one!
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No. Are you implying you have specific concerns at cadet and dev? Or, is this another case of the facts don’t match the feelings so ignore the facts?
That 6-8 data is public. You can PM me some examples of college and ODP oversights. Then I guess the only conclusion is that they didn’t pay enough.
I bet many people here have kids or themselves played all the way through ODP and college without so much as an extra dime paid. I’m one.
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Waiting patiently for any support.
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This thread has turned into a witch hunt and wildly vague accusations being thrown out and then silence or hissy fits being thrown when asked for evidence. Earlier someone said I should talk to boozed up coaches and ask parents opinions on whether or not there kid got passed over because some other daddy warbucks opened the purse. I appreciate you going to bat and asking for some clarity. The court of public opinion will probably win out which sucks. This thread could have been a productive discourse on problem/solutions with ODP but alas, the hysteria has over taken it.
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Ok I’ll bring up a point that I tried to make earlier that brings this thread to a different point:
Why do people have to pay for ODP? I understand the early season mega camps. There’s a lot of evaluation that has to be done and as far as I’m informed the coaches at ODP selection camps do a good job evaluating. I’m unsure if that evaluation actually makes it to the kids, but ive seen the evaluation rubrics and it’s quite in-depth.
For me, the national tournament is a toss-up. I understand refs have to be paid, national staff and coaches have to be paid, and it’s still mostly an evaluation thing, but at this point in the process we’re talking about players that are invited to be there to fight for a select number of spots.
I don’t think anybody should have to pay for academy OR NTSC. At that point it’s, to me, about who’ll represent the nation at international competition.
As I said earlier, I was invited for a different country and never had to pay for a thing (besides travel). Hotels, pool time, practices, etc were free for the invited players.
There’s whole countries who run their entire national team selection, team training and travel with budgets that are a small percentage of usawp’s budget.
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It’s one of USAWP’s biggest money makers. This is their 2024 form 990, a public document. My guess is this ODP number has increased significantly since then.
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Most good coaches do not care who is scoring the goals, as long as their team is scoring more goals than the opponent team. THat’s it, that’s all that matters. Somebody that is a liability on defense, even if they are a great scorer, will be sitting out when the game is still in a tight score and you are trying to win the game. Sometimes the starters and the finishers are not your most talented scorers. Instead they are your most trustworthy players. I had a college coach tell me once; " I don’t need to see high school players stats, I just need to watch them play like 10 minutes, and I will know if I would like them on my team "
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