May be the exception that proves the rule, but I would put Drake Hamilton in that group. If memory serves, Drake had something like 7 or 8 earned exclusions against 680 in the 2021 10u championship game.
Very smart player then. Very smart player now. Sorry for the tangent. Carry on.
Data, Data, Data. To address one of the other discussions on this wide ranging thread.
| Country | 2008-Q1 | 2008-Q2 | 2008-Q3 | 2008-Q4 | 2009-Q1 | 2009-Q2 | 2009-Q3 | 2009-Q4 | 2010-Q1 | 2010-Q2 | 2010-Q3 | 2010-Q4 | Grand Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| AUS | 20% | 33% | 33% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| BRA | 8% | 15% | 31% | 15% | 8% | 8% | 8% | 0% | 0% | 8% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| BUL | 13% | 20% | 20% | 0% | 27% | 13% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| CAN | 20% | 33% | 20% | 7% | 0% | 13% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| CHN | 40% | 13% | 20% | 20% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| CRO | 20% | 20% | 40% | 0% | 13% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| CZE | 33% | 20% | 27% | 7% | 0% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| EGY | 27% | 33% | 13% | 27% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| ESP | 21% | 36% | 7% | 14% | 14% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| GEO | 13% | 7% | 27% | 20% | 13% | 0% | 7% | 7% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| GER | 20% | 27% | 7% | 20% | 7% | 0% | 13% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| GRE | 40% | 27% | 20% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| HUN | 27% | 47% | 7% | 13% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| ISR | 27% | 7% | 20% | 7% | 13% | 0% | 20% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| ITA | 13% | 27% | 7% | 7% | 27% | 20% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| KAZ | 40% | 20% | 27% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| MEX | 21% | 14% | 0% | 7% | 14% | 14% | 0% | 21% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| MLT | 20% | 7% | 40% | 20% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 100% |
| MNE | 13% | 0% | 27% | 20% | 13% | 13% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 100% |
| NED | 33% | 13% | 20% | 7% | 7% | 7% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| NZL | 33% | 40% | 7% | 20% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| PER | 7% | 13% | 7% | 7% | 7% | 20% | 7% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 13% | 100% |
| POL | 13% | 27% | 20% | 20% | 13% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| ROU | 36% | 29% | 14% | 7% | 7% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| RSA | 27% | 40% | 13% | 13% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| SGP | 23% | 15% | 0% | 15% | 15% | 15% | 0% | 15% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| SLO | 0% | 20% | 13% | 0% | 7% | 13% | 0% | 20% | 13% | 0% | 7% | 7% | 100% |
| SRB | 20% | 13% | 13% | 27% | 0% | 20% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| TUR | 13% | 13% | 13% | 33% | 20% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| UKR | 15% | 23% | 31% | 15% | 8% | 8% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| USA | 14% | 36% | 0% | 14% | 14% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 100% |
| ZIM | 40% | 7% | 20% | 20% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| Grand Total | 22% | 22% | 18% | 14% | 8% | 7% | 3% | 3% | 1% | 1% | 1% | 1% | 100% |
Gibson,
I referred to your phrase “if the goal is to win games at big tournaments, we should be sending the best team to do that”. Nobody suggests putting 12s on 16U national team and I would not argue that a boy with 2014 birth year should play on PSW Red unless he really belongs there. But I see nothing wrong with letting a super talented 2014 to play on the Blue team and learn. After all, Blue team’s mission is definitely development and not the National Championship.
The question is not if a talented freshman should play over a junior or senior on a high school team. Most likely, none of the players in such situations would end up on USMNT anyway 
The question is how to identify and nurture elite, and by elite I do not mean a future college player but a future Olympian. I have no clue if the particular player fits the category. But elite players do train and play up very often.
When did Daube start training with the senior national team, for example? What about Dodds? On another note, we used to have Senior National B team some years ago. I would not mind seeing some super talented hs players on such a team.
I do not agree with this assessment. ODP Coaches want to win regionals. They are going to pick the best players/prospects. In the 7 years of working SPA, Coastal, PSW, and PAC, that has not been my experience. However, as I mentioned before, there is bias (at times) with club coaches and/or HS coaches, but that is the reason NT Staff members are at these camps more often than not. Also, there can be pre-determined selections only for players that have been seen multiple times in past competitions.
We either aren’t having the same conversation or we are saying the same thing.
Daube and Dodds were heavy contributors on the teams they played on. There are guys who were on the Youth team that were bigtime contributors. I’m in favor of that. Moving a kid up to a national team just to sit is not something I’m in favor of. I’m not talking about ODP zone teams. ODP championships are mostly 6 in, 6 out half way through the quarter. No one sits. I don’t care who makes the zone teams. I couldn’t care less who makes the SOPAC Blue team, as an example. Most of that washes out by NTSC. Apples and Oranges.
You can recheck what I have written on this thread -I doubt that anybody would want to do it, but it is another matter I have never advocated putting younger players on US National teams if they do not belong there.
Thanks, same with you, see you in San Jose next month. (
@JFranPolo I don’t agree and can cite countless examples of coaches choosing their HS and club players over better players. Often the better players have a life long love and continue to play the sport. Others just fall out, casualties of the decline in participants. With the ODP system set up to maximize revenue, it’s a short term thinking.
My kids have been lucky to be on the inside of this. But so many of their freinds end up on the outside. Sucks to see it happen.
My Valentine’s night ended early. Here it is for the Youth Teams at Worlds in Argentina 2024
| Country | 2006-Q1 | 2006-Q2 | 2006-Q3 | 2006-Q4 | 2007-Q1 | 2007-Q2 | 2007-Q3 | 2007-Q4 | 2008-Q1 | 2008-Q2 | 2008-Q3 | 2009-Q3 | 2010-Q1 | Grand Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ARG | 20% | 20% | 20% | 13% | 20% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| AUS | 27% | 13% | 33% | 13% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| BRA | 29% | 21% | 14% | 14% | 21% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| CAN | 0% | 13% | 27% | 27% | 13% | 7% | 7% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| CHN | 38% | 8% | 8% | 8% | 8% | 8% | 8% | 15% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| COL | 15% | 23% | 15% | 15% | 8% | 0% | 8% | 8% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 8% | 100% |
| CRO | 13% | 27% | 0% | 7% | 13% | 0% | 20% | 13% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| ESP | 57% | 14% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 14% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| GRE | 13% | 33% | 7% | 27% | 7% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| HUN | 27% | 13% | 27% | 7% | 13% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| ITA | 13% | 13% | 13% | 27% | 20% | 7% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| JPN | 0% | 23% | 15% | 0% | 15% | 15% | 8% | 0% | 8% | 8% | 0% | 8% | 0% | 100% |
| KAZ | 14% | 21% | 21% | 14% | 0% | 14% | 7% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| MNE | 20% | 7% | 7% | 7% | 13% | 7% | 27% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| NZL | 23% | 23% | 15% | 15% | 15% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 8% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| RSA | 33% | 47% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| SRB | 20% | 20% | 20% | 13% | 0% | 13% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| TUR | 7% | 40% | 13% | 0% | 7% | 27% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| URU | 0% | 13% | 13% | 33% | 13% | 7% | 7% | 13% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| USA | 40% | 13% | 7% | 0% | 20% | 7% | 7% | 0% | 7% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
| Grand Total | 20% | 20% | 15% | 12% | 11% | 8% | 7% | 3% | 1% | 1% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% |
Goals aren’t everything, for #$!%^!&! sure (penalty shots can really skew this, not everyone is a goal scorer, earned exclusions are great, etc. etc.) , but, here are USA Cadet goals from Malta. Doesn’t include the goalies
| Birth Quarter | Players | Goals | Shots | Shooting % | % Goals | % Shots |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2008-Q1 | 2 | 19 | 37 | 51% | 24% | 22% |
| 2008-Q2 | 4 | 40 | 79 | 51% | 51% | 46% |
| 2008-Q4 | 2 | 14 | 35 | 40% | 18% | 20% |
| 2009-Q1 | 1 | 2 | 7 | 29% | 3% | 4% |
| 2009-Q3 | 1 | 0 | 7 | 0% | 0% | 4% |
| 2010-Q1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 67% | 3% | 2% |
| 2010-Q3 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 50% | 3% | 2% |
| Total | 12 | 79 | 172 | 46% | 100% | 100% |
3 of the 4 2010 goals were scored in the first 3 games.
If you’ve got a source for historical zone coach listings, please share. I did once attempt something along the same lines you propose but I couldn’t come up with the coaches. I’ve got data on players at zone championships back to 2016, those selected to NTSC, and Nick Johnson Award winners, but I’m blank on who was coaching the various teams.
Obviously anytime we say “they left better players off these teams” that’s an opinion. Since ODP doesn’t use 6-8 challenge scores or statistics to pick the teams, it is truly opinion based (and the coaches are the experts here).
There were 21 recruits to the “Big 4” schools from the USA this past year that were freshman in college. I checked past ODP rosters and it would appear that 19 of them made zone rosters at some point that I can find.
The only 2 that I could not find were Alex Heenan (from Harvard-Westlake) who ended up at UCLA and Spencer Williams (from Coronado) a goalie who is at USC.
Now whether or not these 2 tried out for ODP and were not selected I don’t know, but the other 19 players all were a part of ODP (most from Dev all the way to Youth).
I would make the case that ODP is rarely missing on the “best” players as assessed by college coaches. Just saying the results here kinda speak for themselves.
As a parent of several high school boys who go through this process every year, I have been following this discussion thread closely.
Question: is it pretty much a given that younger zone team members (those who have moved up to Youth from Cadets, eg) who were previously selected as NTSC players as Cadets will be selected again for their first year on Youth? Or is there a realistic chance for others to make it in if their performance is objectively strong enough?
Thanks!
Only have access to SPA Dev and SPA Cadet. Congratulations to the selected players.
| Development | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| SPA RED | SPA BLUE | ||||
| 1 | Derin | Sahin | 1 | Leo | Martinez |
| 2 | Jack | Bambury | 2 | Barrett | Anderson |
| 3 | Greyson | Bouquet | 3 | Asher | Barnea |
| 4 | Kekoa | Clements | 4 | Kyson | Carrera |
| 5 | Brener | Dawson | 5 | Luke | Colman |
| 6 | Drake | Hamilton | 6 | Grayden | Gibson |
| 7 | Khanh | Huynh | 7 | Graham | Kotkosky |
| 8 | Matin | Mirrafati | 8 | Ethan | Lee |
| 9 | Quinn | Pasin | 9 | Vasilije | Markovic |
| 10 | Christopher | Song | 10 | Jude | Neppl |
| 11 | Derek | Spruill | 11 | Aki | Strong |
| 12 | Henry | Tatum | 12 | Onni | Viitanen |
| 14 | Ford | Wawrzynski | 14 | Clay | Wells |
| 13 | Tucker | Westmoreland | 13 | Jesse | O’Connor |
| Cadet | |||||
| SPA RED | SPA BLUE | ||||
| 1 | Oliver | Aguero | 1 | Van | Johnston |
| 2 | Elijah | Bolton | 2 | Parker | Day |
| 3 | Asa | Chen | 3 | Dimitris | Dimitrakopoulos |
| 4 | Owen | Clark | 4 | Jackson | Ertel |
| 5 | Tanner | Gorman | 5 | Curren | Francisco |
| 6 | Ronan | Keane | 6 | William | Friedman |
| 7 | Lars | Knepper | 7 | Nathaniel | Gluzmon-Chuang |
| 8 | Christopher | Koo | 8 | Jack | Jacobson |
| 9 | Ezra | Nelson | 9 | Parker | Johnson |
| 10 | Dylan | Park | 10 | Blake | Jurevich |
| 11 | Andrew | Schneider | 11 | Davis | Kipp |
| 12 | William | Weir | 12 | Devin | Riley |
| 14 | Joseph | Wraith | 14 | Cal | Ulicny |
| 1A | Stefan | Vukojevic | 13 | Zane | Kieckhafer |
I’d say it’s a long shot for someone who has never made NTSC to make it at Youth level for the first time unless they are participating in Academy.
Does anyone know all of these stats on World Aquatics? I have some guesses for most but really don’t know/
| TOTAL | % | A | C | X | 6M | PS | CA | PSO | AS | TF | ST | BL | SP | 20C | 20F | 2EX | P | EX | 4EX |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 15/24 | 62 | 3/4 | 3/3 | 6/12 | 2/4 | 1/1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3/4 | 3 | 8 | 3 | 1 | |||||
| Goals/Shots | Shooting % | Some type of Shot | Some type of Shot | Some type of Shot | Shots after fouls | Penalty Shots | ? | Shootout Goals | Assist | ? | Steal | Field Block | Sprints | Ejection at 2M | Ejection in the Field | Double Exclusion | Penalty Foul | Some other Exlusion | Misconduct |
This has been a great thread, I see lots of parents concerned that their kids don’t make a team and lots of talk of coaches pushing their own kids. I have seen it, my son did ODP for a few years, the dev and cadet periods were great. At the youth level he lost interest after being over looked for NTSC during the cadet period. I was supportive and happy not to pay the money and travel to Chicago and Texas. I did an analysis a while ago in the thread showing his cadet team and “where they are now”. After reading this thread this past weekend I wanted to check the DEV team vs where they are now. A simpler format is to just add them up by category. Here are the results from one California zones 2020 Dev teams, 29 players total 14 on red 15 on blue.
Of those 29 kids here is where they are now
(to the best of my knowledge)
9 are playing or are committed to play D1 (4 from Red, 5 from Blue)
2 are playing D2 (one from Red, one from Blue)
4 are playing or going D3 (2 from each)
3 are playing at JUCO (2 from RED, one from Blue)
5 are undecided or not playing from the class of 2025
6 did not play after high school (4 from Red, 2 from Blue)
I just want the Dev parents to understand, don’t let you kids give up if they don’t get selected. In my opinion the only years that matter are the Cadet years, yes it can be hard to break through the ranks if you don’t make DEV, but I felt less interference at the Cadet level. The better kids made it and the others did not. It also shows that Red/Blue don’t matter, if you kid gets put on Blue and you think he should be on Red, he better ball out! If they do, they will get invited to NTSC! If they don’t, the coach was right and it is time to do work.
email me the players. I’m not saying this hasn’t happened, but I do feel in the past few years this issue has improved considerably.
My kid was snubbed in all years of ODP, including the year he received multiple D1 offers. The college coaches are seemingly much less biased than the zone coaches.
