I don’t remember ever seeing them until about 1 week before the event.
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It is supposed to do all of that, but after 5 years of this the end result is showing that kids are less skilled for 7v7. Some kids might have more advanced technical abilities, but even of that I’m not sure. You see some clubs are now completely taking over their section’s ODP, more so than 7-8 years ago. That’s a testament to those coaches, but overall the quality is concerning to me.
In checking the ODP Evaluation Roster from last year, it has a file date of February 15th. We hare a few days early still.
That’s fair. Make the course larger again and you get the space back. My kid played 7v7 10U and it was a lot more like real water polo. I don’t remember thinking that they weren’t developing the right skills.
I thought the reason was to have more teams with fewer players and making it easier to separate players by skill. Hard to have 10 really skilled players on a single 10u team. I don’t subscribe to that rationale.
Thank for the reply. I just was curious on how the selection process goes. I am not disgruntled and very happy for all of the boys that made the team. But from what I am understanding it is not only based from Saturday’s showing but from performances from last year and players that these coaches are familiar with vs the ones that they are not familiar with also has bearing I gather. I just think it is better for the sport and for the kids to assemble the most competitive team possible for both A & B teams without any bias. I just hope that is the case.
Marco,
I would have redacted the cap number you are referencing in your post. You are dealing with young kids, please remember it.
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I agree. None of these kids are even high school aged and you may or may not know who the original poster is referencing or who anyone has a beef with.
Yep, too often we are so immersed in our kids lives that we, maybe even without bad intent, add adult competitiveness, cynicism, negativity in the discussions about kids’ performance. Sometimes we are “formally” right, sometimes we are simply wrong. In all cases, it is better to tread with caution, imho, especially if the discussions are public.
there is plenty of precedence for injured athletes being selected for teams and even invited to NTSC and/or national teams, especially when those athletes attended camps where they were able to be evaluated by coaches and national team staff.
I do keep confidentiality in mind when dealing with this age range which was why I used a cap number rather than a name. That said, I’ve redacted the reference to the cap number in the above post and will be mindful to be more vague going forward.
Mathematically it hurts development to have two less players in the water, or one less player in the water. You are taking 20-40 minutes of game-reps away from kids that work hard in order to play. This means that you are taking a kids experience away to:
-Pay attention in the game
-Get reps in the counter attack up and down the pool
-Battle and fight for position, get combat reps
-Touch the ball (The “whole purpose” of the reduced player rules)
-Understand and utilize space (The “whole purpose” of the reduced player rules).
-Understand decision making within your space: you’re effectively playing without x3 in 12&U. 5-man or I guess “4-man” defense in this age group is incredibly gimmicky. “3-man” defense is even more gross.
-Most importantly, think
The other arguments for less players is also ridiculous. Coaches hide players all the time. It can be 3v3 and a coach will find a way to hide a player if they have to. You will develop the players that are already good, and it wont matter to them, but for the players that are on the fringe who need playtime and to develop and have the opportunity to fail, you’re taking away their reps or potentially causing them to have a different social experience that maybe can turn them off the sport.
It’s a fallacy to reduce the number of players and expect better results in competition. We’re opening up space for 12 year olds to play by taking out a player in the water (more kids in the bench, less overall enjoyment, unless you’re making smaller teams) and the space gained is lost by the size of the course. Regulation size 4 and a half lanes of space. Meanwhile kids in the Balkans will play 25-30 meters. So you’re not really gaining space by reducing the court size and reducing the size of the goal, everything becomes restricted. Only in Futures do 12s play like this. Additionally, as already mentioned, you’re taking away reps. Shooting the ball and touching the ball is not the end-all and it’s such a small portion of the game. There are many facets of the game that end up not being developed.
In the end it’s not water polo and its a gimmick. 4v4 and 5v5 has positive transference to 6v6, yes, and Chess has positive transference to spotting pieces on the chess board that you can learn from, but in the end it isn’t chess. So instead of coaches teaching water polo, you have coaches teaching kids numbering systems that will not be applicable in the short term and kids who have zero understanding of the rules after 12&U. Save the small-sided games for practice and play the real game at competitions. That’s it.
Oh, and the lack of giving 12&U and 10&U the new restricted box is also absurd. How they skipped this rule over the young kids is incredible. Kids aren’t dumb and they can handle the rules as they are. Physical adaptations for the size, balls and cages, sure, but dumbing down the rules makes no sense.
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The selection of the teams balances competitiveness, development, and a measure of zone politics.
Speaking to the last part first, contrary to what many think, being on a flagship club can work against you in being selected for ODP. Not even La Jolla and Del Mar want to see an entire ODP squad consisting of only La Jolla and Del Mar athletes. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened because it has, and not that long ago, but it is embarrassing. Broadening the involvement is a goal.
The Red team is typically built with competitiveness as the main focus. It is the best the zone can assemble, typically stacked with upper year athletes.
The Blue team is the development team. It is filled with kids the coaches want to season for next year’s Red team, and a handful of upper year kids who didn’t quite make the Red team but might have a shot at NTSC if given a chance.
There is a bit of negotiation that happens behind the scenes, and then the rosters are released.
Don’t want to overthink this… but Got it, thank you
I’ve been affiliated in ODP for about 7 years now. When I work with zone coaches, the conversations have been healthy for the most part. There is always going to be some sort of bias–it’s human nature.
ODP makes sure that there is at least one NT coach/evaluator at these zone camps to give an extra set of eyes. Also, many of our NT Staff our watching these athletes during their club and High School seasons to have more data to look at.
Even if a kid has an “off day”, but showed out during high school season or club season, that will obviously be taken into consideration. All athletes need multiple looks. There are only so many Ryder Dodd’s or Emily Ausmus’ types in this country or in my language–“no brainers”.
In the ODP process, we’re obviously looking for the best players, but if players are seen as more promising down the road (projection/upside), many times they’ll be taken over someone that may be more skilled at that same stage.
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I couldn’t agree with this more. ODP gets a bad reputation for many reasons, but for the majority of participants it is about the opportunity to get better. I always tell players that most players will have an end to the process and that it will be disappointing. Whether that end is not making your zone team, not making NTSC, or not making your National Team most kids end up being bummed. The best thing you can do is get better during the process and come back the following year.
It’s hard to keep this perspective especially if your own athlete competes against others who get selected and seemingly outplay them at times. This is where the notion of biases comes into play. Don’t worry, you’ll find it is even more noticeable that there are biases in college recruiting too that will be completely frustrating.
I definitely don’t have all the answers but I do know that so many Olympians can tell stories of how they were cut from a team or ODP and you just have to grind it out.
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I understand, but it’s very hard for me to see how there isn’t an obvious bias when 3 kids who are on the Del Mar 12u team and one of them is only 10 years old gets chosen over 2 kids who were starters on last year’s 12U team who came in second place in 2024 JO’s. One of the Kids in last year’s team that didn’t get chosen was even an All American. And if the evaluation is not just that one particular day, but how the players that have played from last year And throughout this season then that’s even more confusing on how these kids were not selected. Not to mention a few kids who are on the B team that should be on the A team. I mean I understand about favoritism but this is a little bit overboard In my opinion. And I think it’s sad because these kids work their behinds off every day practicing trying to get better so they can compete with their peers on a level playing field only to get marginalized because they’re not on the right club team. And I think it deters kids from trying out for ODP in the future. Again, I always thought you try to put together the most competitive teams possible in order to compete against other zones most competitive teams. I also think it is not fair for the kids that actually made the A or B team but are playing with a less competitive squad than they should be when competing with other zones. But hey, it is what it is, not much I can do about it other than give him my thoughts on this forum.
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Cod6659,
So, in your opinion, 3 kids from this year’s 12U Del Mar team were chosen over 2 kids from last year’s LJU 12U team.
OK. How many LJU boys have made ODP Development teams this year?
If the system is so biased against LJU one would expect the answer to be very low, right? So, is it 1,2,3?
In any case, I do not see what is a big deal. True, some kids maybe have been overlooked. Happens all the time. But this is just the Dev group, for God’s sake. College coaches are not watching, practically nobody cares what happens at the kindergarten level - sorry. If your kid is very talented, he will be fine. Just use saved money for a good water polo camp. And remember - parents could be biased too 
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Not weighing in on these selections (or perceived snubs), but did just want to come here to point out that “All American” status is arguably less objective than ODP selections as the team’s coach selects his All-Americans. There is no committee or vote whatsoever. Based on the team’s placing, they are allocated a certain number of spots in the various “All American” divisions. So, you may often find a kid on the “first team” All-American list who is not as good as someone on the second team or honorable mention list simply because his team finished higher and/or he is a coach’s favorite. This isn’t to take away from that accolade and there are many great players on that list each year, but there is no process behind it other than the club coach being told he gets X spots and the coach emailing back who his picks are. USAWP recently actually changed the name from “All-American Team” to “All Tournament Team,” which is probably a better reflection of what it actually represents.
Also, some kids who shine in their own team environment do so for a variety of reasons (familiarity, coach preference, plays being designed to highlight them, a system that works well for them). That may or may not carry over to performing well in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar coaches, teammates, and opponents. ODP is a great opportunity for athletes to test themselves in a less controlled and less manufactured environment and see how their IQ allows them to adjust to factors that may not be present in their day to day practices and games. Unfortunately, in the water polo world, there are less opportunities to practice this than there are in basketball and soccer where “pick-up” games are the norm and kids can find other kids at a park or playground to play with on any given weekend. Some kids adjust better than others to the ODP environment is the bottom line and the stars on one particular team may not look like stars when they are removed from their team/coach/etc.
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I respectfully disagree with your assessment. But it is all good.
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All good. Just out of curiosity, how many LJU boys have been selected for ODP Dev teams this year?
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