2025 Boys ODP Teams

The setup of the schedule is done to maximize quality games hence the showcase games at the beginning for the top 4/6 teams (depending on the bracket). Trust me, the games between the bottom 4 teams and top 4 teams do not need to be played. It’s not worth the time of anybody involved to see that happen.

If a MDW (for example) area team was going to have a chance to beat a SPA RED team it would take several years of preparation and building, in which case the zone would win games to move out of the bottom 4 one year, then have a better seed the following year where they could move into the top 8, then year 3 is when they would prob have the slightest chance to beat a top 4 team. The best example here is the NEZ area teams who have gradually climbed the ranks in the ODP tournament but have still yet to find a way to win.

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To complete the Youth stat. @Gibson included by grad year. I run the the cut by DOB and another persepctive by the club’s ranking in JOs this year heavily weighting the 16U. I ranked up to about 20 and the rest are unranked. In case of an outliers (Diablo, LA Premier, SD Shores, and Foothill) I included the number of players participated in the Youth tournament.


Note: # of 2009 in NTSC is higher as USAWP shifted a few Cadets up to Youth post tournament.

This is an interesting view. no-one will know the answer for all teams, but USAWP should be curios why some of the teams have zero based on the JO listing from last year, asking why players are opting out. Like any business, you should be curious about that reason to see if there is an opportunity to improve the program and not assume kids are trying and not getting selected. Look at the kids that are opting out with genuine curiosity may teach USAWP how they can improve.

There are a lot of misplaced complaints about ODP, imo. Most of these complaints probably come from parents who’s kids are on the bubble. Bubble kids are always going to feel slighted but they also likely will be cut from whatever the next selection is. I believe by the time the ODP Championships come around there may only be 10-15 spots open to the field of players in each age group for NTSC, mostly outside of CA kids. At NTSC, there are probably only 3-5 available spots for the national team.

Complaints that players aren’t on the correct team or given enough time to shine are completely wrong. The players have been evaluated for years through try-outs, zone evaluations/camps, outside of CA ODP tournaments, academy trainings, national team games, all club games, all HS games and then this tournament. This event does not occur in a complete information void or vacuum.

Furthermore, the request for a stats-based approach with an open rubric so parents and players can understand why they make or don’t make a team is laughable. None of those stats posted by trix are nearly enough to tell anyone if those are great, good or average players. These don’t include the three S’s: size, strength, smarts. Honestly, a 6’2 athlete will get the nod over a 5’8 athlete if all else is equal. There are many attributes and actions that I will lump into “Water Polo IQ.” Smart passing, smart defense, not taking stupid shots, rotating correctly, going to defense as hard as you go to offense, etc., etc. I believe coaches will take a high IQ player all day, every day over one who isn’t but scores more. Bad play that works today won’t work at the next level, what ever that next level is. Kids realize this when they age up every two years, go to HS or College. Adapt or fall behind. What may seem to be good to untrained eyes is actually glaring future weakness to other evaluators. Experienced coaches are going to spot that quickly and first impressions are probably important.

I’ve been around ODP for 8 years and I have never witnessed some of the apathy and disregard toward any players at any event as suggested in this thread.

These suggestions or complaints that the better teams are better because they have better players and their opponents aren’t as strong are just plain weird. That’s how sport works. If the weaker teams had the stronger players they would be the stronger teams. I agree with others that the final standings don’t affect the selections to NTSC. The strongest players are going to be chosen. The stronger teams have more stronger players that will be selected to move on. The 5th place team finished 5th instead of 1st because they didn’t have as many stronger players. The selection isn’t based on the result, the result is based on the strength of the team.

And no, I don’t work for USAWP.

As I mentioned, instead of assuming, a simple question to seek more information to understand could be incredibly valuable. Not to mention it would help with perception, but asking could open up some valuable input, versus making all the assumptions above. Speaking for myself, I am not talking about bubble kids, wrong teams etc., I mention the teams with zero representation, which just may be an indication of talented kids opting out. Asking why would be a relevant question to those players and you may learn something that could improve ODP. Stop assuming it is sour grapes and you may find out how to be better.

One question to the zones, who are the best players in our zone that are not participating in ODP, then talk to those players. Some zones may not want that questioned asked as it may open up critical feedback that people would not want shared with someone at a higher authority at USAWP. I know there are USAWP reps on this board so take this as a genuine recommendation.

Mine was not a reply to you. I’m positive I’m not sure I understand the story from that data, but it looks to be NTSC selections from those clubs, not members of those clubs who tried out. Also, it was explicit that 2007 birth years would be deprioritized as they aren’t eligible for worlds next year. Many graduating seniors skip this event especially during off years. So, the lower 2007 participation doesn’t surprise me.

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Thanks. Why would 2007 be ineligible for world’s next year? I am not familiar with that to be honest.

Because worlds is u18 and u16 next year the oldest year for u18 is 2008

Anacdotally, I think the European age group championship occurs also on even years, but the age cut is U19, U17, U15. Between Worlds and European even age group has an opportunity. This is smart and continuously develops talent across all age groups.

I am not sure how PanAm works, but stagerring the age groups might be an improvement and addresses the ‘disadvantege’ of odd year DOB.

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Interesting information. Probably, not a surprise, but I ran some numbers.

Club Dev Cadet Youth Grand Total 18s Finish 16s Finish
Del Mar Water Polo Club 14 10 8 32 2
Channel Islands United 9 7 9 25 12 11
Mission Water Polo Club 10 8 5 23 2 24
Greenwich Aquatics 7 7 7 21 11 7
Stanford Water Polo Foundation 8 7 4 19 15 6
American River Water Polo Club 5 9 5 19 9
Texas Thunder Water Polo Club 4 7 7 18 22
CC United 4 8 5 17 3 3
San Diego Shores Water Polo Club 4 9 2 15 7 8
Los Angeles Premier 6 6 3 15 4 5
Newport Beach Water Polo 3 3 6 12 1 1
Trojan Water Polo (Ca) 3 4 5 12 16 8
La Jolla United WPC 10 2 12 17
Lamorinda Water Polo 3 6 3 12 18
Shore Aquatics 2 5 3 10 15
Vanguard Aquatics 3 3 3 9 13
Carlsbad Water Polo 5 2 7 19
NORCAL - Northern California Aquatics 7 7 16
SOCAL Water Polo Foundation 1 4 2 7 6 10
Pride Water Polo Academy 5 2 7 19
San Francisco Water Polo Club Warriors 1 2 3 6 22 20
Sleepy Hollow Aquatics 2 1 3 6 20 18
Team Vegas Water Polo 1 1 4 6 13
Diablo Alliance Water Polo 1 2 3 6 4
680 Water Polo 2 4 6 10
Orange County Water Polo Club 1 2 2 5 21
Atherton Water Polo Club 2 3 5 8 14
CT Premier Water Polo Club 2 2 1 5 14
South Coast Water Polo Club 2 1 3 21
San Jose Express Water Polo 1 1 23 17

Some clubs like SOCAL and several PAC zone clubs, seem to have sent fewer kids then you might expect to the championships. Oahu, Thunder and Greenwich are over represented due to the number of clubs from their zones. This doesn’t tell us how many tried out for the zone teams. Knowing that would help understand how many are actually trying out and if there may be any bias toward certain clubs.

CIU sent 25 kids and finished 11 & 12 while LA Premier in the same zone sent 15 after finishing in the top 5 (I understand that other LA Premier kids were rostered and dropped). CCU sent 17 finishing 3rd at both ages. Newport finished 1st and only sent 12 (many kids played both ages and no seniors came).

I’d argue that many clubs are actually way over represented than any that are under represented. 14 development aged kids at Del Mar made it this far to try out for the national team? SF finished in the low 20s and sent 6 kids. That relationship makes sense to me. It could be that the expectations of the players and parents at the clubs that only send a handful of players are more reasonable than others.

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Got it. Thanks.I’m not sure if that was explicit to 2007 across the zones to be honest. Maybe it was, but I wonder. I assume most parents on here are some of those that do more research than those that don’t. I was not aware but had not thought about it to be honest.

The over repreesented clubs you mentioend (Ohau, Thunder, and Greenwich) are the ‘Zones’ HAW, SWZ, NEZ as their clubs dominate the zone. The zone structure of ODP leads to this outcome.

In previous post I suggested switching ODP to a ‘Draft’ structure with 12 equal teams. In particular at the Youth level. There is at least 80%+ overlap between the boys selected to Youth NTSC this year and the last year Cadets NTSC.

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This is a good idea. You would need to include people in each zone that truly know the kids, not part timers like some zones have, to be sure it works. I think this would be a good approach to try.

The table below ilustrates for Youth the % selection by club and addresses the over/under-representation point you make. For this group, which seems to be the leading USA clubs the median % selection is about 57% (‘Greenwich’), which is higher than for the entire Youth group standing on 32%. ‘Green’ is above the median for this sample gorup and ‘Red’ below.
~60% is a very high selection % and it indicates that for this group of clubs the boys know where they stand. Outside this group, mostly non-CA teams ODP is mostly another opportunity to get high level competition and exposure. All those goals are great for the boys and the sport.

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Got it. Thanks. I really agree with your point about kids at certain clubs having a good idea of where they stand.

I suspect that this data is skewed a little by the existence of the Blue teams. Some blue players are B team players and others were a little more mixed between actual prospects and long shots.
Youth Blue teams from PAC and SPA each sent 5 players to NTSC.

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I don’t understand what this accomplishes. This method will only put players with teammates they don’t know for coaches who don’t know them. How would they develop a system of offense, 6-5, 5-6, defense, counter attack? How will you seed these teams? I can’t imagine the complaining that one team had an easier path because of the draw or how one kid was disadvantaged because his teammates were so much better than him that he wasn’t given the chance to shine. “If his teammates hadn’t been so fast, he wouldn’t have been the slowest player. Why was he put with such fast players. That’s not fair!”

The players are mixed at NTSC. No reason to rush that.

If anything, make a few teams from the Regional Championships to come to California. I don’t understand why that weekend exists if not for this reason. Is it the same teams with the same players? There are too many teams and too many players at this event. 715 rostered kids cut to 198. That will be cut roughly in half after NTSC.

Also, eliminate the medals and trophies and rename the event. As someone else said, these games are scrimmages. There are no scrimmage champions.

In the Regional Champ, each of the zone outside of CA brings 2 teams. For the National Camp, the coaches consolidate the two teams into 1, that is 50% cut. I doubt the teams outside of CA, and not sure for the ones in CA, practice “develop a system of offense, 6-5, 5-6, defense, counter attack?” together. If they are lucky they have 2/3 players from the same team that knwo each other.

This the cut on % selected that are returned ‘pipeline’ athletes. Overall, 65% of the athletes are not new to the pipeline NTSC/Academy and 35% were freshly ‘selected,’ i.e., does not look like completely a pre-determined selection.

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That’s a great analysis. Thanks. Maybe my 10-15 was light but I don’t know if you’ve included anyone new to academy this year who didn’t make NTSC last year. Could be a small number. This year might be different for the many missing 2007 kids who were on the national team last year and are eligible this year but didn’t come.

The PAC number is surprising. I wonder how many of these new players are goalies. They seem to be cut at the highest rate at NTSC.

Thanks for the clarification on the regionals.

I think you’ll find that the kids on the teams do know each other and their strengths and so do the coaches. Simply playing against each other over the years breeds familiarity. Many have played on different teams together before HS sent them in different directions. That SPA red team had a lot of team chemistry. PSW had a lot of Del Mar. Coastal had 4-5 CIU kids. PAC had a bunch of CCU. The smaller zones have many kids who are on the same club as mentioned before.

ODP Nationals is already consisting of teams of players that don’t play together so @WPpops idea is not that far fetched and would balance everything out.