2025 Boys ODP Teams

High School - Boys
327

You actually just proved my point.

Because there is absolutely no chance that those 6 out of 20 kids born Q1 2012 were better than all 22 kids who were 2011 Q4 who got cut. So yes, the staff very much appears to have had an informal birthday cutoff point and then moved on to choose the top/oldest 2012 kids rather than bring in any of the younger/smaller 2011s. I do not doubt that if there had been a 6-foot-tall 180 lb. 7th grader with a November birthday in the crowd that he would have been pulled through. But I stand by my assessment that at least half a dozen of the top kids in the age group were put out to pasture.

I am not even necessarily saying this is the “wrong” thing to do, but it is most certainly what was done.

The top 2012 kids will be eligible for tournaments that the 2011 kids will not (going back to the “odd year birthday” curse), so I understand the staff’s desire to start identifying the better 2012s at this point.

Pointing out what happened is very different from being overly critical of it. I have pointed out the reality without necessarily expressing an opinion on it and it’s certainly something for parents (at least parents of Q4 kids) to take note of.

There are undoubtedly examples of Q4 odd-year birthday athletes who eventually “made it” (Ben Hallock comes to mind), but the odds are certainly stacked against you if you fall into that category so you’d better be a freak of nature if you expect to get pulled through.

328

Again, I do not see any deep conspiracy. Those Q4 2011 kids who “carried their teems on their backs” according to their parents did well because they were the oldest last summer. Good for them. But again, I have a hard time believing that Nat team coaches looked at the birthdate to discriminate against them. Maybe they were just weaker than early 2011 kids and showed less promise than some 2012 kids. Who knows… In any case, we are talking about middle school kids. If they are they good, they will attract attention of many coaches with or without NTSC during their hs years.

329

Not sure why you are so hostile to some honest and pretty obvious observations being made about the system. I think everyone on this board can agree that a lot of talented kids get left behind by the ODP process. It’s an inherently flawed system and it is a natural product of the way the system is set up that some very good kids get left behind. I’m not ranting or making excuses or really even promoting any deep conspiracy theories. If you think the system is perfect and that all of the best athletes get captured, you are entitled to your opinion. I am not sour grapes over any of this at all. The data speaks for itself and anyone who is actually familiar with this age group can tell you that some very talented kids were left behind. No one is crying about it, but this is a discussion board and the topic is ODP, so we are discussing the realities of ODP.

I do agree that, in the end, whether or not these kids ever make a national team, the best kids will almost always get seen by those they want to have see them in some capacity, whether it is high school, club, a showcase, a camp, or any of the other many ways that athletes can gain exposure.

4 Likes
330

It is interesting to hear at the Dev age group talented kids get left behind. I can say at the older age groups, such as youth, some zone’s better players have left ODP after seeing it for what it is.

1 Like
331

I think we can all agree that the birthday cutoff in any venue (age group, school, ODP, etc.) advantages some and disadvantages others, particularly in the early years. I think we can also all agree that 9-12 months is a significant period of growth, strength acquisition, etc. in the development age group, such that an older 2011 athlete (14+ years old) is more likely to have a physical advantage over a younger 2011 athlete (recently turned 13) at least in terms of size and strength, which certainly come into play in a physical sport like water polo.

What is also not up for debate is the absolute fact that none of the 22 Q4 kids from 2011 were selected. And I would hope we can all agree that there are some talented kids in that group, regardless of whether we think they should have been selected.

What we may disagree upon is how USAWP should respond to this disparity and I think there are a lot of valid opinions here. Maybe it’s just a “tough luck” or “try again later” approach and you have to hope they come back. If they don’t, maybe we conclude that they weren’t cut out for the rigors of the process of ascending to a national team, anyway. If they do return, it seems we all agree that eventually that age advantage starts to fade and you have to hope the evaluators are constantly on the lookout for kids who are making strides and passing up their slightly older peers, rather than just taking the same kids year over year who were identified early. I don’t have enough experience with the program to know how this has gone historically, but I think it’s good that some attention has been brought to this and we can all follow along over the years to see if any of these athletes are brought into the fold as time goes on.

2 Likes
332

The surprising part of ODP (IMO) is that USA WP could have run this past weekend more like a very aggressive camp with lots of games/scrimmages and general training rather than just a formal standard tournament.

Were any boys actually tired at the end of the tournament?

Most boys played 5 games but they really only played about half a game because of equal substitution standards. So many boys played about 15 min per game and 30 min per day. That’s Not too much for a strong athlete.

Yes there were some “team” meetings and some warm up passing time but really it was not much beyond a basic tournament.

I think most parents would have been happy if we had sent our kids to the pool for 3-4 hours Friday and then 6-8 hours Saturday and then 3-4 hours again Sunday morning.

And in that time I think a lot of kids would get to show their true potential to USAWP staff better. They just needed more time in the pool.

The logistics of how this all would happen would require a lot advanced planning on the part of USAWP. the staff would need to be very VERY organized and there would need to be more pools utilized. But in the end it seems like USAWP staff would get a much better picture of who should move forward to the NTSC.

3 Likes
333

I will chime in on my experience as a dad of a current D1 college player.

My son went to ODP tryouts once, declared it unsafe and dangerous and never went back.

He said the coaches turned a bunch of top shooters loose on some green goalies. He said there was no training and he felt like a practice dummy.

On his club the top players were not involved with ODP.

When my son was being recruited a few coaches asked about ODP, but made it clear that it was not a requirement and agreed the selection process was theatre.

One and done with ODP.

5 Likes
334

Red teams have a MUCH easier path to semis than Blue schedules.

335

Trix,

So? Forget about making semis.

Coastal Blue Cadet was seeded 9th and finished 8th. Coastal Blue Youth was seeded 8th and finished 11th. Are you trying to tell me that those teams were seeded too low? Standard B team performance for one of the strongest zones…

336

Red teams are the A teams. Of course they have an easier path. They are the better teams. Players on the Red teams tend to better than players on the blue teams, so, yes, red team players are more likely (have an easier path) to make NTSC.

There seems to be massive confusion about what is happening at ODP.

I mean this story about green goalies being put in dangerous situations, what? These kids are the same age. What are apparently many goalies doing at an ODP camp trying out for a national team if they can’t protect themselves from shooters their own age?

337

@wpolo93 you’re claiming there is clear distinction between Red / Blue - A / B teams based on where they Finish - Top 4 vs 8-12. I’m pointing out that this is the likely outcome in part, due to the strength of schedules Red/Blue teams are assigned. Red teams need two “easy” wins against Blue teams to make 1-6 Bracket where they will finally play a Red team. A Blue team will face a Red in game 2.

I’ll reiterate what some folks have argued before, is that the selection of Red / Blue rosters is very vague, ambiguous, political, & disheartening. Strictly based off merit or performance, I’d argue that 1-2 Red players should have been Blue, 1-2 Blue players should have been Red, 1-2 Blue players should not have been rostered at all in favor of kids left off Championship selection, but because USA Water Polo does not have a transparent selection process we are left wondering why or how kids get rostered where they are.

Below is the 5 game average of the team I was following/scoring at ODP, names redacted. 4 players made NTSC selection. Clearly performance or merit was not a factor. Maybe they were all even # birth years? Maybe they’re all Academy kids? Maybe they’re friends or family of some USA Water polo official, but the lack of objective, performance-based transparency will certainly turn kids & families away from ODP.

image
image1266×300 33.8 KB

1 Like
338

I do not have a dog in this fight, so, frankly, I do not care :slight_smile:
I only objected to the statement by one of the parents that Coastal zone split players evenly into Red and Blue teams - this was obviously nonsense.

Of course, it is always the case that 1-2 Blue players could/should have been selected to the Red, and a few Red players could/should have been selected to the Blue…

Anyway, the parents need to relax a little bit about real and perceived injustices. The goal of the program is to develop future National team players, and not to give a decent player a leg up in their college recruitment via NTSC honors.

Cheers

2 Likes
339

This is so silly. The difference between Red and Blue teams is that the Red team has generally stronger players. Having stronger players means they might finish higher. Those stronger players are generally chosen for a next level.

This event is pretty straight forward 4 seeded brackets. The good teams win because they only play teams worse then they are? I guess I can’t argue with that logic, that’s the way the globetrotters did it. I’m trying to understand the tournament setup that doesn’t have a weaker team play a stronger team. Who do the stronger teams then play? Each other or even stronger teams? So a weaker team never has to beat a stronger team to get to the semifinals? But, how can that even happen, won’t one of the two weaker teams playing each other be weaker than the other? Does that make the other team stronger and therefor they should only play the stronger teams? Mind melting. It’s an escheresque puzzle. I guess I need to rethink march madness and bracketology.

There are plenty of parents and players of all ages who don’t know what it means to be a really good water polo player. That may be causing confusion and disappointment. But, but, but…my kid scored so many goals…

340

The setup of the schedule is done to maximize quality games hence the showcase games at the beginning for the top 4/6 teams (depending on the bracket). Trust me, the games between the bottom 4 teams and top 4 teams do not need to be played. It’s not worth the time of anybody involved to see that happen.

If a MDW (for example) area team was going to have a chance to beat a SPA RED team it would take several years of preparation and building, in which case the zone would win games to move out of the bottom 4 one year, then have a better seed the following year where they could move into the top 8, then year 3 is when they would prob have the slightest chance to beat a top 4 team. The best example here is the NEZ area teams who have gradually climbed the ranks in the ODP tournament but have still yet to find a way to win.

3 Likes
341

To complete the Youth stat. @Gibson included by grad year. I run the the cut by DOB and another persepctive by the club’s ranking in JOs this year heavily weighting the 16U. I ranked up to about 20 and the rest are unranked. In case of an outliers (Diablo, LA Premier, SD Shores, and Foothill) I included the number of players participated in the Youth tournament.

image
image756×158 4.75 KB

Note: # of 2009 in NTSC is higher as USAWP shifted a few Cadets up to Youth post tournament.

image
image448×802 14 KB

342

This is an interesting view. no-one will know the answer for all teams, but USAWP should be curios why some of the teams have zero based on the JO listing from last year, asking why players are opting out. Like any business, you should be curious about that reason to see if there is an opportunity to improve the program and not assume kids are trying and not getting selected. Look at the kids that are opting out with genuine curiosity may teach USAWP how they can improve.

343

There are a lot of misplaced complaints about ODP, imo. Most of these complaints probably come from parents who’s kids are on the bubble. Bubble kids are always going to feel slighted but they also likely will be cut from whatever the next selection is. I believe by the time the ODP Championships come around there may only be 10-15 spots open to the field of players in each age group for NTSC, mostly outside of CA kids. At NTSC, there are probably only 3-5 available spots for the national team.

Complaints that players aren’t on the correct team or given enough time to shine are completely wrong. The players have been evaluated for years through try-outs, zone evaluations/camps, outside of CA ODP tournaments, academy trainings, national team games, all club games, all HS games and then this tournament. This event does not occur in a complete information void or vacuum.

Furthermore, the request for a stats-based approach with an open rubric so parents and players can understand why they make or don’t make a team is laughable. None of those stats posted by trix are nearly enough to tell anyone if those are great, good or average players. These don’t include the three S’s: size, strength, smarts. Honestly, a 6’2 athlete will get the nod over a 5’8 athlete if all else is equal. There are many attributes and actions that I will lump into “Water Polo IQ.” Smart passing, smart defense, not taking stupid shots, rotating correctly, going to defense as hard as you go to offense, etc., etc. I believe coaches will take a high IQ player all day, every day over one who isn’t but scores more. Bad play that works today won’t work at the next level, what ever that next level is. Kids realize this when they age up every two years, go to HS or College. Adapt or fall behind. What may seem to be good to untrained eyes is actually glaring future weakness to other evaluators. Experienced coaches are going to spot that quickly and first impressions are probably important.

I’ve been around ODP for 8 years and I have never witnessed some of the apathy and disregard toward any players at any event as suggested in this thread.

These suggestions or complaints that the better teams are better because they have better players and their opponents aren’t as strong are just plain weird. That’s how sport works. If the weaker teams had the stronger players they would be the stronger teams. I agree with others that the final standings don’t affect the selections to NTSC. The strongest players are going to be chosen. The stronger teams have more stronger players that will be selected to move on. The 5th place team finished 5th instead of 1st because they didn’t have as many stronger players. The selection isn’t based on the result, the result is based on the strength of the team.

And no, I don’t work for USAWP.

344

As I mentioned, instead of assuming, a simple question to seek more information to understand could be incredibly valuable. Not to mention it would help with perception, but asking could open up some valuable input, versus making all the assumptions above. Speaking for myself, I am not talking about bubble kids, wrong teams etc., I mention the teams with zero representation, which just may be an indication of talented kids opting out. Asking why would be a relevant question to those players and you may learn something that could improve ODP. Stop assuming it is sour grapes and you may find out how to be better.

One question to the zones, who are the best players in our zone that are not participating in ODP, then talk to those players. Some zones may not want that questioned asked as it may open up critical feedback that people would not want shared with someone at a higher authority at USAWP. I know there are USAWP reps on this board so take this as a genuine recommendation.

345

Mine was not a reply to you. I’m positive I’m not sure I understand the story from that data, but it looks to be NTSC selections from those clubs, not members of those clubs who tried out. Also, it was explicit that 2007 birth years would be deprioritized as they aren’t eligible for worlds next year. Many graduating seniors skip this event especially during off years. So, the lower 2007 participation doesn’t surprise me.

1 Like
346

Thanks. Why would 2007 be ineligible for world’s next year? I am not familiar with that to be honest.