Depends on what you think a waste of money is. If my kid is a q4 birthday but gets a lot out of the camp playing older kids and learning some new skills and creating relationships with coaches and players, is that a waste if money? The arguments need to move away from “ODP is a waste of money because my kid didn’t make it out of the selection camp.” Move towards “I’m paying for this selection camp and hope my kids learns something from this.” Again I am not arguing that ODP has faults but the money centered argument is being phrased as I paid money so my kid is on team or is a waste of money is a bad faith argument.
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Could have been a worthwhile expenditure if the secondary tank wasn’t shallow enough for the kids to touch bottom during scrimmages. Doesn’t even allow them to show fundamental skills.
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For sure and I appreciate you adding context you your post. Illuminates why you feel that way. This is good discourse and I appreciate your answer and I hope I didn’t come across as negative
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So what are we saying here?
Kids that are good enough to make those team are kept off, or that some kids on the margins get on?
I don’t really have a horse in this particular race; I’m simply inclined to disagree with anyone who has dismissed others’ concerns by making essentially blanket statements that ODP coaches at all levels do not allow anything beyond objective observations of each athlete’s skill level to enter into their decision-making process. I don’t believe that’s a realistic conclusion… call me a cynic. I think everyone’s unique experience deserves consideration and there is always room to evaluate and improve upon just about any selection process.
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I’m saying they aren’t taking people for money in exchange for roster spots. Do coaches break ties by taking kids they are more comfortable with and trust? Probably.
But saying kids don’t deserve to make a team in place of another is so subjective as to be a meaningless complaint. Not every draft room agrees on the number one pick. As said above by a few people, arguing about players on the margin is silly. Many complainers simply don’t know how to evaluate water polo talent and don’t understand what it takes to win high level games.
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Just the opposite. Everyone’s experiences are subjective. Given your non answers, I’m going to respond as if we’re talking about bubble players. There’s no way you, or anyone else, can say those kids were unfairly placed on or off of a team. Furthermore, if the complaint is that those spots are bought, then let’s see the evidence! This is quickly devolved into sour grapes from parents who feel their kid got shafted. I’m far less inclined to validate that against a coach who knows far more about the game and what his/her group requires to be successful, ESPECIALLY if we’re talking about the last few kids that make a cut. If coaches aren’t allowed to coach, then we’ll have much bigger problems.
When did I say a single thing about spots being bought or express anything resembling sour grapes?
I’ve posted 3 times:
- To answer a question about whether ODP is a major revenue source for USAWP. I simply attached a public document to demonstrate that it, indeed, is. I added zero commentary that would suggest that I believe spots on national teams are for sale.
- To express my opinion that any selection-based competition is going to be influenced by a variety of factors, not all of which are objective.
- To suggest that blanket dismissals of other contributors’ concerns is probably unproductive.
There are flaws in the system just as there are in just about any human-designed/human-executed system. Why is it so offensive to some to have that acknowledged?
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My post regarding a scandal about that private school in the valley was flagged and removed. The story was all over the news and the moderators decided it was inappropriate to discuss the issue in this chat group.
You say that but you don’t have proof. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but others have different opinions and experience and it’s not an interpretation.
The big difference as I see it is there are people posting anonymous gripes claiming their kid was passed over because someone else paid for their kid to be promoted. Making accusations without evidence and doubting accusations that have no evidence are not the same thing, in my book. Are those kids and parents and coaches announcing the payments? Is that how everyone knows or is it just conjecture? Since it’s an anonymous blanket accusation, they are painting all coaches, players and the system with that brush.
If a kid experienced this at several levels with many coaches, they must have been extraordinarily unlucky to have that happen so often when so many of us don’t see any at all, maybe even players on the same team. It seems weird to me that only a few people on a given team think this is happening. If it’s so obvious, why doesn’t everyone see it? I bet another parent has a perfectly good, non-financial, explanation for the decision that so upsets the parents of the passed-over player.
I’ve had kids with parents who seem to complain about the same thing with all the coaches. How every coach doesn’t appreciate how great their kid is. They don’t accept the feedback that they or their kid needs to change. They think everyone else is wrong and they are right. Play the victim. Keep complaining.
For the people that are mentioning this phenomenon, are you speaking of the experience of your kid or others? Parents complaining about how their kids are treated aren’t always the most objective or accurate evaluators. Especially coming from people who have no experience in playing, training and evaluating high-level water polo players.
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Like I said before, you are very lucky to not have experienced this but please don’t make light of other’s experiences.
Could be wrong, but I don’t read his response as making light of other peoples’s experiences. The argument continues to be kids were left off of the ODP roster due to money. It’s been repeated on here multiple times. When asked for proof, it’s other something along the lines of ; a parent said so, coaches were drinking and let something slip or heresy. I do not doubt that some people have had bad ODP experiences. But not one is making light of that. Just the continual bad faith arguments
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at the end of the day USAWP is a business and the members are the customers. The details that some keep harping on are irrelevant for this forum. USAWP should be asking the zone coaches, parents, and athletes how they can improve and also what everyone loves on a continuous yearly basis. This is how to grow your business 101. Optics do matter as you want families to spend their money, invest their time, and tell their friends how awesome ODP and the sport of water polo is. The argument that the customer just doesn’t understand and status quo is fine only creates frustration.
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They’ve increased travel opportunities significantly (I think there are 3 Cadet and 3 Youth travel teams this year). That seems to be a response to giving more players opportunities. Nothing will ever stop parents complaining about unfair treatment or ball under not being called.
I just checked that Kocur ODP interview that I posted where he explains what it takes to succeed at ODP. It has 161 views. I’m at least three of those. How many players at boys & girls National Champs? 1,000+? That’s terrible optics about the knowledge and interest of parents. If people can’t be bothered to learn from the people who are running the show, they have no business complaining about the process or the lack of transparency (that the existence of the video obviously makes ridiculous).
In 2024, ODP revenue increased by 10% while Membership revenue dropped by 11%. We won’t know 2025 data for some time. But, ODP seems to be working for USAWP.
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I remember when our daughter did ODP. She had not been doing it consistently because she had multiple sports and other extracurriculars. The year she tried it, she was a star player on her club team and there were a few girls from her team that weren’t starters that were on the B team for ODP (some areas got 2 teams or 1.5 and shared with another area - don’t know if they still do this). She didn’t get selected for NTSC because she was on one of the top 2 ODP teams and literally every single girl on that team was amazing and they selected girls from every zone team. Some of her club teammates from the “lesser” ODP team did get selected because I think every team had to be represented. We knew that they had certain numbers they took from each team so there was a very good chance that the younger or players with less ODP experience on the top performing teams would get cut, but girls from the lesser ODP team would make it to NTSC. Rather than complaining my daughter talked to her ODP coach about what she could do better and what he thought she could improve on. Correction: she did do it again, and was selected for NTSC but I believe it was the year that NTSC got canceled because of Covid. I’ll tell you the experience was overall very positive and our input to her was do your very best and sometimes you get the opportunity and sometimes you don’t. She ended up going to a top D1 water polo school. If we as parents are constantly comparing our kids to other players and not instilling in them an attitude of how can I be my best and what can I do to improve, we are not doing a service to our kids. If your kid truly is as good as you think they are, they will end up where they are supposed to for college. I think this is probably the biggest concern of parents — how do I get my kids enough exposure so they are in the best position to succeed. They just need to keep working hard, don’t be a victim, and play their hearts out.
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I’ve said for years that the parents of the kids who really are THAT good are the ones you never hear from, and are probably reading this thread and shaking their heads while staying out of the discussion.
I’ve had some really good athletes who will always be unforgettable to me, but I couldn’t tell you their parents first names.
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What you really mean is “don’t make light of others’ OPINIONS”. We actually can make light of experiences that aren’t verified. If you had actual evidence it would be one thing, but this thread sounds more and more like “my little Johnny”.
This thread is so strange. Some people comments are actually experiences and some are opinions. ODP is not perfect and at times worse than that. For some it’s fine. It has been verified to be predetermined through several coaches. There are verified legit players too. It’s all okay. People make decisions that work for them and thats great, either way. Why is everyone lobbing anonymous darts at each other here?
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My kid played D1 for UCLA and per the benchmark in this thread, that makes them a good player. I still say the experience was not good.
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