Impact of NCAA recruiting on water polo in the US

General
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Oh yes Harvard was involved in the Varsity Blues scandal as well as many Ivies, Stanford, and of course the most widely known USC.

Harvard was going through Fencing and Tennis mostly if I recall correctly.

As painful as it is to admit, the financial/relationship aspect of recruiting has to be a factor. If a family can provide significant assistance to the program financially or support in some way, a coach probably should consider this and weigh it into how they view a player. While maybe not as overt or obvious as Varsity Blues, I believe this is definitely happening to some extent in water polo, with many wealthy families involved.

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100% this is happening in waterpolo. There is just no other way to explain why wealthy kids ( who are not considered top recruits) from Harvard Westlake, Sacred Heart Prep and schools in Connecticut are making it onto the rosters of certain private schools. How many waterpolo kids, for example, go to UCLA or Cal from those schools? Sometimes it happens, but not often. But look at Stanford, Princeton, Harvard and they are dominated by kids from those wealthy private schools. And its not because of grades. The only difference between this and varsity blues, is the parents are currently donating a lot more money to the programs and the money is being paid once the kids are admitted, not before.

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I think you’re making too many assumptions. Just look at the percentage of students from schools like Harvard-Westlake and Sacred Heart Prep who go on to Ivy League and Ivy-equivalent institutions—it’s over 30%.

These students attend those schools because they tend to be more academically inclined than those at schools known for top water polo recruits. In another thread, I mentioned the average SAT scores across several top water polo programs, but just to illustrate the extremes: Harvard-Westlake’s average SAT is 1460, while Newport Harbor High School’s is 1070.

Several of the kids that you assume paid their way into those schools are walk-ons, who got admitted based on their academic merit and happen to be decent water polo players.

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you are comparing the average SAT of a private college prep school and a public school. That is not really a fair comparison.

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Those are some pretty serious and disparaging accusations. Where is your evidence to prove that these kids don’t have the grades or that their parents are paying these schools a ton of money to gain admission?

H-W and Sacred Heart Prep have two of the top water polo programs in the country and are rigorous academic schools. Some might argue that those schools surpass many public schools in academic rigor from where other recruits are coming. The Ivy League coaches and Stanford place a huge premium on grades/test scores. I’ve known these schools to take top academic performers/lower level players to offset the better players whose grades/test scores are lower. So perhaps the kids from these private schools are gaining admission based on being good water polo players with excellent academics. To assume they are gaining entry because their parents are paying money to influence admissions is not right.

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It is not fair only if the water polo players at those schools are not the ‘average student’ at those schools. That is possible.

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A lot of points covered here - if you have a hour-long car-ride coming up:

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The evidence is the Varsity Blues scandal. It was happening in gross and scandalous manners.

While the methods used in VB have been since eradicated, the fact remains that coaches are very aware of families financial situations during the recruiting process. It’s a factor and we shouldn’t be naive enough to think it has no impact.

Private high schools like HW have huge advantages when it comes to test preparation and these wealthy parents will also pay for SAT tutoring to ensure a good score (also part of the Varsity Blues scandal by the way was that they would pay to have an SAT test expert take the test for them).

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That is not legitimate evidence against players that have come after the Varsity Blues scandal. In fact, all schools have been increasingly stringent on the admissions process following the VB scandal.

My statement remains the same - site your evidence that the players admitted to these schools are not academically qualified. Site your evidence that these students are not strong water polo players. Site your evidence that the students are gaining admission because their parents are paying the schools or that their bank accounts are influencing admissions. Absent any evidence, these statements are pretty outrageous IMO.

Neither you nor @SkipShot are citing any evidence for your assertions. You are simply making accusations that disparage both schools and the hard-working kids who attended those schools.

You are also state that these students may have a competitive advantage re test prep. Maybe it’s true, maybe it isn’t (where is your evidence either way? Do you have information on the tutoring and financial advantages of these students?). This issue is irrelevant. Whether kids have tutors or not, they take the exams and score what they score. The Ivys and Stanford have a threshold for SAT/ACT scores. If a kid cannot meet that threshold, they don’t get in. If they do, they still have a shot, but it’s not guaranteed. It’s that simple.

@SkipShot noted that there is “no other way to explain why wealthy kids (who are not considered top recruits) from Harvard Westlake, Sacred Heart Prep and schools in Connecticut are making it onto the rosters of certain private schools”.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to explain why these types of private school players “who are not top recruits” may get on to the rosters of the Ivy league schools. First, the water polo programs mentioned (Sacred Heart Prep and Harvard Westlake) are great water polo programs. Even if a player on one of those teams is not on the USA national team, chances are, they are very good - skilled and ranking in the upper echelon nationally – and likely excelling academically. So, they are far from chopped liver. In fact, they are the type of “scholar-athlete” that the Ivys/Stanford tout as the type of athlete that embodies their core values. It’s not all about water polo with these schools, right?

Second, while the Ivys have excellent teams, they are not water polo powerhouses that equal the Big 4. So, they won’t attract every single tippy “top player”. Given this, they are recruiting from an expanded candidate pool which includes “good” players (maybe not “great”) with excellent academics.

I take issue with these assertions that are not backed up by evidence – or at least not acknowledged that it’s just an opinion based on outside cited information. If anyone is going to disparage these kids and their parents, you better back it up with some facts.

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Sheesh. I actually never said in either of my posts that these players aren’t academically qualified or athletic fits for those schools.

All I said was that the coaches are very aware of their financial situations and they have significant advantages over other players who may be similar players from public schools.

So again, not disparaging anyone here and not going to single out specific examples of players who have used their relationships or finances for their own gain either.

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“Do you have information on the tutoring and financial advantages of these students?”

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Hi - I formerly coached at a selective school here giving my two cents that I hope can offer perspective.

The other thing that doesn’t always come up (but should IMO), is selective schools such as the Ivies and Claremont colleges operate under need based financial aid. So another reason why we were told to be mindful recruiting wise (besides talent and transcripts) is because not everyone can afford the full price of tuition. There are some who are on the opposite end of this line who will be awarded aid by the university. The reality is those kids are far and few in between in a sport like water polo.

On top of this coaches are now being further pressed to fundraise further incentivizing identifying top talent who have the grades and can afford to enroll. It’s a hard reality for coaches to make that happen.

The uni I work at now is a little bit different, but fundraising is still a big emphasis and sometimes recruiting from areas that have kids of good academic standing and can offer fundraising goes a long way. One of my former players who competed for Michigan said Marcelo (for all intents and purposes of this discussion), tried to identify players based on academic readiness and water polo readiness and I personally am a fan of the terminology.

At the end of the day, higher education is a business and we live in a capitalist system. Some coaches will utilize strategies for different success points and a big part of that happens in the recruitment process

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Retiredguy, I appreciate your insight and what you are saying sounds correct; however, wouldn’t paying/donating money to an organization to sweeten the pot, regardless if it’s before or after admission to the university, to get your kid a spot on a water polo roster considered “Pay for Play” or using a more layman term, bribery? I understand that it is legal to donate to a specific college program and even a coach through a booster fund if the donations are based on metrics e.g. Win a national title, deliver a Cutino Award nominee, etc. But if kids can get rostered if their parents donate to a program and/or a coach, that sounds illegal.

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Maybe this economic differentiation will lead to better parity across the schools.

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Its not illegal. In fact most development offices at private schools identify potential prospective students (regardless of whether they play a sport) and analyze their ability to donate above and beyond tuition. If those families offer to donate, there is no doubt that helps their kid gain acceptance. The same is true for sports programs all over the country. These are mostly private schools, and they are literally “pay to play”, i.e., you have to pay to go here, and if you can pay more than someone else, you get a leg up. During the Varsity Blues investigation, it was revealed that USC has an admissions department with admissions officers assigned to various regions of the country, and in particular, different regions of Southern California: West LA, San Gabriel Valley, San Fernando Valley, North Orange County, Long Beach Area, etc. Guess what area had at least two admissions officers dedicated solely to it: Harvard-Westlake. That’s correct, Harvard-Westlake was considered its own “area” within USC admissions, and they assigned more admissions officers than much larger geographical areas. Why do you think that is? It’s certainly not because there are more academically eligible students coming out of one small private high school than all of the San Fernando Valley. Its because those parents can pay full boat.

The only reason the sports aspect of Varsity Blues was considered illegal, although the only two criminal convictions after trial in that investigation have been reversed on appeal or dismissed while on appeal, was that a middleman was paid who then allegedly defrauded the universities by either submitting fake documentation, or having an insider on the payroll faking documentation or changing documentation. It was based on a defrauding of the university theory. But if those same parents had just skipped the middleman and paid the university directly, they wouldn’t have gotten in trouble, and it would have been perfectly legal. Why do you think USC/UCLA/Stanford/Cal ran JV programs for so many years before roster limits? Those JV teams were filled with kids from wealthy areas who couldn’t make the varsity team.

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Paying full tuition is one thing but donations directly to coaches, are you saying that is legal too?

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I was referring to donations to the school or program. Benefits directly to the coaches would be considered illegal if the school was unaware of it and didn’t approve it. Again, that would be fraud on the school.

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So after a kid is accepted at a college, and the parents want to donate to his/her sport program only, that is perfectly legal, as long as you do it through proper channels and it is made to benefit the whole team, correct?

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yes, every athletic department has a “day of giving” they collect donations for each specific sport. Players parents are “expected” to contribute…

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I’m still under the belief that being rostered and playing time is given in exchange for those “donations.”